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One factor tomorrow’s election will check is Individuals’ urge for food for chaos, notably the type that Donald Trump has been exhibiting in the previous few months of his marketing campaign. After weeks of working a disciplined marketing campaign, Trump’s advisers misplaced management of their candidate, the Atlantic employees author Tim Alberta reported this week. Trump grew stressed and bored and drifted off script in his marketing campaign appearances. Throughout a summer time interview with the Nationwide Affiliation of Black Journalists, for instance, he mused aloud about Kamala Harris, “I don’t know. Is she Indian or is she Black?” From the angle of his advisers, Trump’s string of offensive public statements needlessly alienated potential voters. Members of Trump’s marketing campaign employees instructed Alberta that they grew to become disillusioned about their skill to rein of their candidate and left the marketing campaign.
Will this unleashed model of Trump have an effect on the election final result? On this week’s episode of Radio Atlantic, we speak with Alberta and one other Atlantic employees author, Mark Leibovich, about how candidate Trump reworked over the summer time, how Kamala Harris’s marketing campaign reacted, the place every marketing campaign stands now, and what it means for the election. Alberta and Leibovich additionally provide tips about the way to handle your inside chaos whereas watching the election outcomes.
The next is a transcript of the episode:
Hanna Rosin: I’m Hanna Rosin, and it is a bonus episode of Radio Atlantic. We’re recording the Monday earlier than Election Day. The candidates are furiously campaigning within the swing states. In some unspecified time in the future, their planes have been on the identical tarmac in North Carolina.
Over the weekend, Donald Trump mused about capturing reporters; Kamala Harris stated regular marketing campaign issues. And but the race remains to be one of many closest in American historical past.
Anyway, on this episode, I wish to get the within view of each political campaigns of their final days. So I’ve with me right now two seasoned political reporters, Mark Leibovich. Hello, Mark.
Mark Leibovich: Hello, Hanna.
Rosin: And Tim Alberta. Hello, Tim.
Tim Alberta: Hello, Hanna. Hello, Mark.
Leibovich: Hello, Tim. Isn’t it good to be seasoned right now?
Alberta: I’m feeling very seasoned.
Rosin: Yeah, that’s a cliché phrase. It doesn’t imply previous. What’s a extra flattering phrase than seasoned? Like, skilled? Or longtime? Longtime: that’s flattering, I feel.
Leibovich: It’s undoubtedly flattering.
Alberta: We don’t use veteran.
Rosin: No, veteran is previous. How about energetic?
Leibovich: Yeah, we’re very energetic. Yeah. Are you able to inform by our voices?
Rosin: (Laughs.) Anyway, Mark, I perceive you’re writing up a preelection information to the way to method Tuesday night time.
Leibovich: Mainly, I’m making an attempt to gather a useful toolkit to the way to method Election Day from kind of a sensible standpoint so far as what info you’ll be able to ignore, but in addition a behavior and even mindfulness standpoint about the way to not drive your self needlessly loopy, how to not be triggered by the sorts of issues that Election Evening protection will in all probability overload you with.
And that features Donald Trump in all probability declaring victory wildly prematurely or erroneously, which, I imply, will likely be information as a result of he’s one of many candidates, nevertheless it additionally ought to shock nobody. And there are methods to sort of situation your self, or attempt to, going into what tomorrow night time will likely be like—which will likely be clearly very anxious for lots of people.
Rosin: I see. So as a substitute of “We all know it’s going to be like that,” like, “We all know that we don’t have sufficient info.”
We all know that there in all probability isn’t going to be, kind of, prompt early readability. So that you’re going into it eyes extensive open, doing what? Like, what? As a result of possibly Tim wants this recommendation.
Leibovich: Effectively, I’m making an attempt. Effectively, I feel all of us want this recommendation, Hanna. I imply, I feel it’s an method to how we devour info, how we get info.
I talked to a few Democratic consultants who stated that one of many first issues they do is flip off all their textual content notifications, as a result of any sort of textual content notification is designed to set off you on Election Evening.
There may be a number of manipulation of your feelings earlier than the precise solely info that’s mandatory, which, essentially the most beneficial info goes to come back in in all probability after 11 o’clock, or fairly late. It may very well be days later. The thought is the information will discover you. Flip off your cellphone in case you can. Data is coming in haphazardly from one million completely different instructions, out of order, in no specific sequence by any means, about one thing that has already occurred—that means the voting has already occurred. So no management is there. That is principally simply individuals throwing info out in no order, and it isn’t essentially—
Rosin: It’s not cumulative and it’s not including as much as—
Leibovich: —Not cumulative.
Rosin: Precisely. Precisely.
Leibovich: So anyway, that’s one purpose you’ll be able to skip that half.
Rosin: Attention-grabbing. Tim, do you suppose you may do this?
Alberta: I worry that within the try to not drive myself loopy, I might drive myself loopy. In different phrases, you’ll discover your mind stacking up with all the issues that different individuals know that you simply don’t, as a result of in that second you could have determined to sequester your self or no less than to kind of rigidly compartmentalize your feelings and your mind waves and your political consumption.
And subsequently the exit polling displaying the variety of non-college whites in Maricopa County breaking away from Trump is misplaced on you in that pivotal second, when that may very well be the little parcel of knowledge that’s mandatory so that you can consider that you’ve lastly found out this electoral equation and that you’ve a bead on it on this second.
It’s a sport of inches, and the inches are all over the place round us, Hanna. So how may I hand over any of these inches once we are so near the tip of the sport? I need the zen that Mark is providing, however I simply don’t discover it practical.
Rosin: Hmm. You understand how typically you begin with the second of meditation? We’ll take into account that our second of meditation, and now we’re gonna go into the anxious a part of this dialog. So, Tim, you’ve been masking the Republican aspect carefully, and you lately spent a number of time speaking to Trump’s advisers.
How would you describe the state of the marketing campaign within the weeks earlier than the election?
Alberta: I might describe it as one thing barely faraway from the serenity that Mark has described for us.
Rosin: Sure. Okay. Yeah.
Alberta: Yeah, look, Hanna, I feel the context right here is absolutely vital: that this Trump marketing campaign, in contrast to the earlier two, was for almost all of its time in operation, actually fairly disciplined, fairly good.
The individuals working the marketing campaign had finished a fairly good job of preserving Trump out of his personal approach and speaking him out of dangerous concepts and kind of curbing a few of his most self-destructive impulses. And what we’ve seen within the final couple of months is principally Trump going full Trump, and an incapability amongst these senior advisers to actually do something to cease it.
This has been sort of the proverbial slow-motion automobile wreck. And, , it’s not simply Trump himself, though after all he’s the inspiration for the chaos. He’s the generator of all the turmoil that you simply see.
He’s on the heart of this chaos, however the chaos ripples out away from him. And so while you ask your self the query of how may or not it’s that at an important public occasion of the marketing campaign, with 20,000-plus jammed into Madison Sq. Backyard in prime time, the entire world watching, and also you pay one million {dollars} to placed on this occasion, and the man who kicks it off is a vulgar, shock jock, insult-roast comic who was dropped by his personal expertise company for utilizing racial slurs onstage—how may this individual probably be booked into that place to open for Trump in that setting? It’s precisely the kind of factor that the individuals round him had been actually profitable in avoiding for a lot of the marketing campaign. However finally, in the important thing residence stretch right here, within the kind of the witching hours of this marketing campaign, it’s all fallen aside.
Rosin: Mark, identical for the Democrats. How would you describe the place they’re?
Leibovich: I might say I’ve talked to a good variety of Democrats on the marketing campaign in the previous few days.
It seems like one thing approaching the final space of the ballpark of confidence.
Rosin: Attention-grabbing! Anomalous for Democrats.
Leibovich: Effectively, they’re so extremely fast to embrace dangerous information and to go proper from dangerous information to deep ranges of doomsaying. I’ve not seen that in the previous few days.
I imply, look, I feel their numbers internally appear a bit of higher. I feel a number of the exterior polls have been encouraging. And I feel you’ll be able to’t underestimate how a lot of a prepare wreck Trump’s final 10 days have been, in a approach that, if he loses, I feel individuals will very a lot level to.
Rosin: So, Mark, I keep in mind we sat right here within the spring and mentioned how completely stagnant this race can be. Like, we have been simply sleepwalking right into a repeat.
Leibovich: But it surely was an ideal podcast. Everybody ought to take heed to it once more. (Laughs.)
Rosin: But it surely was very, —we didn’t have a lot to say. After which for everyone, the reset button acquired pressed in July.
Tim, the complete Trump who we’ve seen on the marketing campaign path for the previous few months began, truly, in line with your account, earlier than Harris entered the race. So what occurred?
Alberta: I feel that possibly the right visible right here, Hanna, is just like the wild animal that has chased down its prey and has mauled it principally to loss of life and is now simply kind of pawing at it, toying with it, not sure of actually what to do as a result of, nicely, what’s left to do?
Donald Trump actually discovered himself, in line with all of the reporting I did, kind of over it. Form of tired of working towards Joe Biden. As a result of right here is, in his view, this kind of hapless previous man who can’t even string collectively sentences, a lot much less actually defend himself or go on offense in a significant approach towards Trump. And so I feel that he’s taking a look at Joe Biden considering, Gosh that is kind of a bore, and round this time, after all, in late June, early July, Trump’s polling is healthier than it’s ever been in any of his three campaigns for the presidency.
The battleground polling is displaying him persistently pulling forward 5, six, seven factors throughout all of those states. The nationwide polling is up. His favorability is up. Democrats are making ready for a massacre not simply to lose the presidency however to lose the Home and the Senate, and it’s, , The sky is falling. And everybody round Trump is kind of giddy and gleeful. They’re trying round like, Nothing can cease us.
And round this time is while you began to see Trump speaking a bit of bit in another way, behaving a bit of bit in another way, in line with individuals near him—nearly in search of some dysfunction and a few mayhem to inject into the marketing campaign. He begins speaking to individuals on the skin. And when Kamala Harris will get within the race, he was indignant, on the one hand, as a result of he thought he had it kind of sewn up towards Biden, and he appreciated working towards Biden within the sense that Biden actually, , couldn’t punch again.
However I feel additionally he’s kind of excited within the sense that with Harris, he’s acquired this dwell goal. He’s in a position to channel a few of the base instincts that introduced him to energy within the first place. You realize, Trump, I feel, considered the Harris switcheroo as a brand new lease on life within the sense that he was going to have the ability to go entire hog once more.
However the individuals round him have been saying, No, no, no, no. That’s precisely what we don’t need you to do. And admittedly, the rationale you’re on this place is since you’ve listened to us and since you haven’t been going rogue and working the sort of, , completely undisciplined #YOLO 2016 marketing campaign that you simply want to run and that you’d run in case you have been left to your personal gadgets. And round that point is when Trump began to lose confidence in these individuals who have been giving him that recommendation, and he introduced in different individuals to assist with the marketing campaign, and from there issues actually began to spiral.
Rosin: So, Mark, how are Democrats responding as Trump is reasserting this peak-Trump model of himself?
Leibovich: I feel in a sort of measured approach. I imply, I feel, look, the height Trump just about speaks for itself. It’s not such as you want individuals to amplify. I imply, to some extent you do, as a result of retailers that a number of Republicans watch—like, say, Fox—are going to be insulated from a number of this, as a result of simply Fox doesn’t present it.
I imply, that’s simply not their level of emphasis, However I feel they’ve been very deft—they’ve made a number of advertisements across the sort of altering abortion messaging. I imply, even Melania Trump saying that she believes in a lady’s proper to decide on, issues like that, to some extent, they’re making an attempt to spotlight it, however to a different diploma—it is a huge political-operative cliché, however they’re working their race.
And I feel the Democrats, starting when Biden stepped apart, I feel Harris has carried out a lot better than lots of people thought she would, and I feel her marketing campaign has made a number of good choices, and he or she herself has made a number of good choices.
Rosin: It does, from the skin, appear precisely the alternative of the chaos contained in the Trump marketing campaign that Tim described, as a result of in case you suppose again to when Biden dropped out, there was some fear that the transition may not be clean.
Leibovich: Oh, 100%. I imply, Tim and I, keep in mind, we have been on the Republican conference collectively, and that was such a second, as a result of Trump was actually sort of at his peak then, which is sort of ironic to say, as a result of the assassination try had taken place two days earlier than the conference began. However his recognition, I imply—there was a way of confidence at that conference which was simply off the charts to a level to which you may nearly sense the boredom creeping into Trump when he’s giving this acceptance speech, and I suppose it was Thursday night time, after which about midway by means of, he simply sort of went off the rails, and he simply kind of—it grew to become only a very unhinged acceptance speech, went from sort of a gripping one the place he’s describing the assassination try to one thing utterly completely different, which sort of grew to become a metaphor for the way the remainder of the marketing campaign would unfurl for him.
And naturally, three days later, Biden acquired out after which the world modified once more.
Rosin: All proper, up subsequent, I ask Tim and Mark whether or not the chaotic closing months of the Trump marketing campaign may find yourself costing him the election. That’s after the break.
[Break]
Rosin: So from a marketing campaign supervisor’s perspective, the chaos is disturbing, however what we truly care about is whether or not it has any affect on voting day. Tim, so what are the methods the drama you describe may have an effect on the election? Like, say, turnout or no matter it’s that we’re frightened about?
Alberta: Effectively, look, if these episodes have been contained to only Trump being a bit of bit goofy or going off message and kind of ranting and raving concerning the newest one who stated one thing very nasty about him on cable information, I don’t suppose it will have a lot real-world impact. However I feel that a few of what we’re unpacking right here over these previous 10, 11, 12 weeks, Hanna, is one thing that really will get to a basic weak spot, which is a failure of the Trump staff to develop its coalition.
Or on the very least what we’re seeing is the best way during which the potential of increasing the Trump coalition has been undermined by Trump’s personal actions or by the individuals near him. So, for instance, we all know primarily based on six months of actually strong, constant knowledge that Trump is more likely to carry out higher with Latino voters as a complete and notably with Latino males below 40 than any Republican nominee in fashionable historical past.
And but, when the dominant headline popping out of your rally at Madison Sq. Backyard the week earlier than the election is that one among your audio system calls the island of Puerto Rico floating trash within the ocean, that is self-sabotage.
One other core part of this Trump marketing campaign, from the start, has been How can we maintain our margins tight within the suburbs exterior of Detroit and Milwaukee and Philly and Vegas and elsewhere? How can we maintain our margins tight with these college-educated, suburban ladies? We’re not going to win them, proper? However how can we handle to maintain it shut? How can we lose them by simply seven or eight factors as a substitute of by 16, 17, 18, 20 factors?
And while you have a look at, for instance, the number of J. D. Vance and, , his previous, greatest-hits reel round childless cat women, and he thinks abortion ought to be unlawful nationwide, proper?
And there’s simply one thing that kind of went basically awry over the summer time. I feel Mark is true. Each of us have been remarking on the conference about the way it was successfully an early Election Evening victory social gathering. I imply, they weren’t even—Republicans in Milwaukee weren’t even speaking concerning the marketing campaign as if it have been going to be aggressive. It was already over. The fats woman was singing onstage in prime time in Milwaukee. And but, I keep in mind corresponding with a number of good Republicans—Trump supporters—whereas I used to be there, and so they have been a bit of bit nervous concerning the Vance choice. After which on Thursday night time, to Mark’s level, Trump provides this kind of bizarre, meandering speech that appears to squander a number of the goodwill that he had coming into that occasion due to the assassination try. And it felt like between these two issues—the Vance choice after which the speech—after which, , 24 hours after leaving Milwaukee, Biden will get out, Harris takes over the ticket, and all of the sudden, these dominoes began to fall.
And what we noticed was all the best-laid plans of the Trump operation go awry. And it wasn’t simply surface-level issues the place we are saying, Oh, that was kind of foolish he stated that. Or Oh, this was an unforced error, nevertheless it’ll be a fast information cycle and blow over. A few of what we’ve seen, I feel, may have an actual affect on the poll field.
Rosin: So what you’re describing is a marketing campaign technique that’s pretty conventional that they have been following pretty efficiently, which is: try to win over, , some middle-of-the-road voters, or no less than not massively alienate these individuals.
However, Trump has been working a really completely different sort of marketing campaign—like going to Madison Sq. Backyard—and fewer on-the-ground sources. And that looks as if a sample throughout swing states, which for me raises the query whether or not what these managers are calling chaos, like, that’s the technique.
The technique was at all times simply: get a number of consideration.
Alberta: I feel it is dependent upon the kind of consideration you’re speaking about. So when Trump goes to the southern border and has, , a whole lot of cameras following him round there and talks concerning the lives misplaced by the hands of unlawful immigrants committing crimes—, that’s consideration, and it will probably even be consideration that’s rooted in some hyperbole, some demagoguing, some bombast. And but it’s productive consideration politically for the Trump individuals, proper? They have a look at this kind of cost-benefit evaluation and so they acknowledge that, positive, we would antagonize some individuals with this rhetoric. We would alienate some individuals with our concentrate on these points, however we expect that the reward is way better than the chance.
So there may be, I feel, loads of good consideration that the Trump individuals do need. I feel what they’ve tried to keep away from is a number of the sideshow that’s interesting to a few of the very on-line, right-wing, MAGA troll base however does nothing so as to add to the coalition that I used to be describing a minute in the past. And finally on the finish of the day, politics is a math equation. It’s multiplication and addition.
Leibovich: Proper, and I feel, to Tim’s level, immigration was an extremely efficient challenge for Trump. If you tip that into individuals consuming pets in Springfield, Ohio, and simply how that took over the narrative of the Trump marketing campaign—I imply, one, they appear to be fools; two, it insults the intelligence of so many individuals, and it turns a really severe and efficient challenge for the Trump marketing campaign, immigration, right into a joke and into simply one thing actually, actually problematic and gross.
Rosin: So the artwork of working a Trump marketing campaign, then, is to siphon and handle and titrate the chaos precisely proper. Like, you need the correct of chaos, the correct of consideration, however in case you lose management of it, it simply comes again to chew you. Is that principally what’s occurred?
Alberta: Yeah, and it’s at all times gonna be a high-wire act, proper? These individuals aren’t silly. They knew what they have been getting themselves into. In actual fact, Chris LaCivita—who is among the two individuals managing the Trump presidential marketing campaign right here in 2024—inside a number of weeks of his determination to hitch the operation again within the fall of 2022, you could have Trump saying that he needs to terminate elements of the Structure. You might have Trump saying and doing these kind of loopy, self-destructive issues. And LaCivita is kind of trying round saying, What have I gotten myself into?
And naturally people who find themselves buddies with him are saying, Come on, dude, you knew precisely what you have been signing up for. You realize precisely what you have been getting your self into. So I feel no matter diploma of self-delusion could exist on the outset, when a few of these people ally themselves with Donald Trump, , it dissolves fairly rapidly and so they develop into clear-eyed about who they’re working for and what the challenges are.
And to your level, Hanna, sure, there’s inevitably going to be some chaos, some attention-seeking habits, some stuff that’s vulgar and inappropriate and racist and misogynistic and no matter else. Their job is to attempt to flip issues which might be sort of probably poisonous into productiveness. They’re making an attempt to mine coals out of manure right here, and once more, I can’t stress this sufficient: For a lot of the marketing campaign, they have been truly doing a fairly good job of it. However at a sure level I feel it simply turns into an excessive amount of to handle.
Rosin: Mark, do you get the sense that the Harris marketing campaign’s—you described it as, like, a bit of dose of confidence. Is that due to all the pieces that Tim has described?
Leibovich: Yeah. I imply, I feel Trump has given them a lot to work with. And never identical to, Oh, look, he stated this and kind of placing that on the market. I imply, early indications concerning the revulsion that ladies are having—ladies voters are having for Trump—much more so than standard. And the diploma to which they appear to be voting and possibly even mendacity to their husbands about—to sort of use a brand new advert that the Harris marketing campaign is utilizing which is principally saying, , a number of Republican ladies are secretly going into the poll, and behind their husband’s again, they’re voting for Kamala Harris. So once more, Trump made their job simpler, however I feel they’ve taken what has been given to them. And I do really feel hopeful. Yeah. Once more, from speaking to a bunch of them, and ranges of very, very cautious optimism—which I might say, , it will in all probability be an absolute verboten factor for anybody anyplace close to the Harris marketing campaign to indicate something greater than only a tiny little bit of confidence. As a result of that’s going to harken again to the overconfidence of 2016 or the overconfidence of 2020, —Biden was purported to win by much more than he did.
And I feel what freaks everybody out is the concept that Trump, within the two occasions he’s been on a general-election poll, has massively overperformed his polls. And now there’s a way that maybe that’s been accounted for in these polls and so they’re undercounting African American voters, ladies voters, and so forth.
So anyway, I feel all of that’s sort of baked into this, however look, I don’t wish to counsel that something aside from huge anxiousness is the default for everybody round this marketing campaign. And I assume each campaigns.
Rosin: Yeah. Okay. Let’s depart the listeners with ideas about Election Evening. There’s the zen choice, and hopefully lots of our listeners will reap the benefits of the zen choice.
Take an extended, 12-hour stroll. Be residence by 11 p.m. after which activate the tv. Wanting that, the map is absolutely extensive and open. I imply, seven open states. It’s quite a bit. So for many who aren’t spiritually constructed for the zen choice, how—actually—will you guys be watching? Like, give a listener a information of what to be careful for on the night time.
Leibovich: Effectively, sure, there are seven battleground states. However I feel there’s quite a bit you’ll be able to be taught if you will get info from different states. You realize, there’s a ballot that everybody has been speaking about—a number of insiders have been speaking about over the previous few days—from Iowa. Iowa, nobody thought-about a swing state. Safely purple, actually has been in the previous few elections, actually for Trump. Ann Selzer, a deeply revered pollster, got here up with this Des Moines Register ballot on Saturday night time, having Harris forward by three.
Now, placing apart whether or not Iowa’s now a battleground state—I imply, if it’s even within the ballpark of correct, I imply, as a euphoric outcome for individuals on Group Harris. I imply, look, if there are some early numbers from, say, South Carolina, Florida, that, , possibly present Trump’s margins a bit of decrease than you’ll count on, probably that’s one thing which you can be taught from.
So once more, it’s not simply the seven battlegrounds, which can in all probability take some time to rely, particularly in a few of the states with legal guidelines that make it tougher to rely early votes. However, yeah, I imply, like, the entire nation does vote. It’s like, margins do matter, and I feel we will be taught from lots of people.
And look, even, like, Massachusetts, Vermont, Kentucky—I imply there are these early states that precisely who’s going to win, however you’ll be able to be taught from.
Rosin: As a result of if the margins are smaller than they’re anticipated to be, then that’s a bit of information that’s attention-grabbing. Tim, what about you?
Alberta: So there’s a identified identified, and a identified unknown. The identified identified is that Democrats are persevering with to see erosion of their coalition, particular to African American males, Latino males, and to some extent younger voters.
And I feel particularly if we’re taking a look at Detroit, at Milwaukee, at Philly, at Atlanta, at Maricopa County—there are locations the place we ought to be taking note of this, proper? I feel the identified unknown right here is: Does Donald Trump get overwhelmed up amongst suburban ladies, or does he get demolished amongst suburban ladies?
And I feel that the reply to that query might be determinative to who’s sworn into workplace on January 20.
So I’m actually paying very shut consideration to the collar counties exterior of Philadelphia, to the WOW counties exterior of Milwaukee. It’s important to have a look at Vegas and Charlotte and Raleigh-Durham. A few of these locations—I don’t wish to be reductive, however I actually do really feel like, finally, that’s the place the election goes to be gained or misplaced.
Rosin: Each of you might be saying: Search for indicators. It’s not simply huge, broad swing states, however there are significant indicators in smaller election outcomes that you simply’ll be in search of.
Alberta: That’s proper. It’s, once more, it’s only a numbers sport. And it so occurs that essentially the most dense, vote-rich areas of persuadable voters are simply persistently present in these as soon as re,d then purple, now fairly blue suburbs. And so whether or not you’re watching the presidential race and even in case you’re in search of a possible upset in a Senate race, like in Texas, the place Ted Cruz on paper appears like he’s going to win and possibly even win comfortably. However take note of Harris County, Texas, which, on Election Evening in 2012, Obama and Romney fought Harris County to principally a draw. I feel it was a matter of some hundred votes that separated them. Quick-forward, , a decade. Democrats are carrying Harris County, which is the Houston suburbs—they’re carrying it by a quarter-million votes, 300,000 votes reliably, and that quantity’s solely going up.
So these are the elements of the nation the place I feel in case you’re paying shut consideration, you’ll begin to get a fairly good thought.
Rosin: Okay. I feel we’ve choices for the meditators and choices for many who can’t carry themselves to meditate. Thanks each for becoming a member of me on this present day earlier than the election.
Leibovich: Thanks, Hanna. Thanks, Tim.
Alberta: Mark, I’ll name you tomorrow. We will meditate collectively.
Leibovich: I sit up for it. Yep, we’ll be part of figurative arms.
Rosin: This episode was produced by Kevin Townsend and edited by Claudine Ebeid. It was engineered by Rob Smierciak. Claudine Ebeid is the chief producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
I’m Hanna Rosin, and we’ll be again later this week to cowl the election, although probably sooner than our standard Thursday launch, relying on the outcomes.
Thanks for listening.