When Neighbors Dwell in Completely different Worlds

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Hosts Anne Applebaum and Peter Pomerantsev speak with Hanna Rosin concerning the new sequence We Dwell Right here Now. Rosin, alongside along with her co-host, Lauren Ober, not too long ago discovered that their new neighbors moved to Washington, D.C., to assist January 6 insurrectionists. Rosin and Ober determined to knock on their neighbors’ door. We Dwell Right here Now is a podcast sequence about what occurred subsequent. Subscribe to We Dwell Right here Now right here: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | iHeart

The next is a transcript of the episode:

Anne Applebaum: That is Anne Applebaum.

Peter Pomerantsev: And that is Peter Pomerantsev, and we’re right here with a visitor right now, The Atlantic’s Hanna Rosin.

Hanna Rosin: Hello.

Applebaum: And though our sequence, Autocracy in America, has wrapped up, there may be nonetheless so much to do and take into consideration forward of the 2024 election.

Pomerantsev: Hanna is the host of The Atlantic’s weekly present referred to as Radio Atlantic, and she or he’s additionally simply launched a brand new podcast referred to as We Dwell Right here Now, a sequence.

Rosin: Yeah, We Dwell Right here Now is the story of my associate, Lauren Ober, and I discovering that we had some new neighbors, and it’s about our effort to get to know these neighbors. And it turned out, these neighbors have been supporting the January 6 insurrectionists.

Pomerantsev: On the finish of this episode, we’ll embody the whole first episode for listeners to listen to. However we need to begin with a bit clip that provides you a way of what first launched them into making the sequence.

Applebaum: Hanna, I’ve had confrontation experiences myself.

I used to be as soon as at a dinner in Poland—it is a couple years in the past—with outdated pals who out of the blue began repeating a conspiracy principle concerning the authorities, and it occurred to be the federal government that my husband had been a part of. And I attempted to pay attention politely and go like, Uh-huh, yeah, that’s true, yeah, certain. After which ultimately I left the room.

Rosin: Uh-huh.

Applebaum: And I’m unsure I may have lasted even that lengthy with individuals who weren’t outdated pals and have been doing the identical factor. So we’re not going to speak all about We Dwell Right here Now, since many listeners could not have but heard the podcast, however I do need you to inform me a bit bit extra about that have of being shouted down in your neighborhood—or, extra precisely, being along with your associate as she was being shouted down. Had been you by no means tempted to argue again?

Rosin: Yeah, I imply, I actually assume it’s an accident of how the interplay occurred. If it had occurred at dinner, I suppose you may mood your self, such as you simply described. You may by no means see these folks once more. Like, you may ignore them or shout them down after which select to by no means see them once more. However as a result of these folks lived a few blocks away, I kind of knew I used to be going to see them so much. So perhaps that muted my response. My associate doesn’t have a mute button, however I simply type of knew that I higher take a step again and take into consideration what I need to do, as a result of I used to be going to run into these individuals who, , occur to have militia stickers and are seemingly aggressive. So I simply type of wanted a minute to assume what I needed to do. With out that pause, I’m unsure this story would have occurred in the best way that it occurred.

Pomerantsev: And the way did you construct the connection with them? I imply, was it, was there any type of discomfort or hazard concerned once you first met them? After which, however most significantly, how did you construct belief? I imply, how would they be taught to belief you?

Rosin: You understand, it’s fascinating. When you determine to step into an alternate world, it’s nearly like you need to make the choice. More often than not, we simply don’t make that call. We’re like, That is cuckoo. I’m not going. I don’t share something in widespread with these folks. Like, we don’t also have a shared set of information in the best way we would have 15, 20 years in the past. So there’s simply—like, there’s no starting to this relationship. For no matter motive, we closed our eyes and determined to step into that various actuality. And when you make that call, you simply do it very, very, very gingerly.

On this case, they occur to do a public occasion, which we knew was occurring each single night time, and it’s out on a avenue nook in D.C. And it’s public house. So that really gave us the liberty to indicate up at this public occasion. It’s outdoors the D.C. Jail, and so they’re in assist of the January 6 prisoners. The detainees are all held in a segregated wing of the D. C. Jail, so that they maintain a protest each single night time at the very same time. So , you may metal your self up each night time and say like, Okay, tonight’s the night time I’m going to go to the vigil, ?

Applebaum: Can I really ask you some extra about that vigil? As a result of one of many issues We Dwell Right here Now does, it explores the best way through which folks can rewrite historical past, which is without doubt one of the issues that occurs. And also you discuss how on the vigil, there are posters with faces of people that died on January 6. And every poster reads Murdered by Capitol Police, though just one individual was discovered to have died from a bullet fired by the police, And so there’s now a story that the folks in jail are the nice guys and the folks outdoors of jail are the unhealthy guys. I really spent 20 years writing books concerning the historical past of the Soviet Union, and that is very a lot what autocratic regimes do: They modify the best way you keep in mind historical past. They make heroes out of villains, and vice versa. And the way, how did you see that occuring and the way did you come to know the way it labored? Why was it profitable among the many folks that you simply have been visiting?

Rosin: Nicely, that was one of the crucial exceptional experiences I had—is being that near watching revisionism occur. Like, the nitty-gritty, going again and time and, Okay, when was the primary time that Trump talked about Ashli Babbitt?, who’s the girl who was shot by the Capitol Cops? As a result of initially, proper after January 6, many—even Trump supporters—stated, you know, The Capitol Police officer did job. You understand, He did his obligation. It was a horrible day. Like, when you have a look at issues that occurred in early January, everyone was sharing the fact of what occurred on January 6. And then you definately watch how, slowly, type of folks peel away from that actuality. Trump begins attempting out strains at his rallies. Oh, Ashli Babbitt was murdered. He makes use of the phrases, “they,” so much. You understand, they killed Ashli Babbitt. They did this. And at that time, the Large Lie—the lie that the election was stolen—may have light away, prefer it felt like a second the place it may have simply been relegated to historical past, after which it’s like, hastily, there’s this collective choice, Oh no, we’re going to revive this. And the best way we’re going to revive it’s by speaking first about this martyr, after which about this group of individuals, and out of the blue black is white and white is black.

And since these individuals who we bought near, they’re kind of innocents on this narrative. One of many foremost characters is Micki Witthoeft, who’s the mom of Ashli Babbitt. And simply take into consideration that. She’s a grieving mom. It’s as if her emotional-grief actuality begins to align with Trump’s messaging on this excellent storm, after which hastily, issues that aren’t true appear, not simply true, however righteous.

Pomerantsev: Inform me a bit concerning the fable, although, as a result of on the one hand, it’s an alternate actuality, which you described so properly simply now, however however, isn’t it fairly American on the identical time? I imply, I really like once you discuss, , how they describe themselves as “saving democracy.” They’re the true patriots. I imply, as you encountered it, did you discover it fully alien fable or one thing that really kind of resonated with so many American tales about themselves: rebelling towards Washington, the entire—

Rosin: Sure, I imply, one factor that I got here to really feel concerning the January 6 detainees, like, typically it could pop into my head: them in costume, like, Okay, they’re, they’re kind of role-playing 1776 right here, . Notably, one in every of our episodes is a few jury trial. My associate was very randomly referred to as onto a jury, as many individuals in D.C. are, and it occurred to be a January 6 case. And never solely that, but it surely occurred to be one in every of these January 6 circumstances through which you’re feeling that somebody simply type of misplaced it for a day. You understand, it’s a dad; he has 5 youngsters; by a choose’s rely, extraordinarily legislation abiding; been married for a very long time. However then throughout that day, simply type of, , went nuts.

And as you get nearer to what they did that day, you do really feel like there was only a rush, like a rush of kind of feeling heroic, , feeling patriotic, feeling such as you have been saving the nation, feeling like you’ve gotten this unbelievable mission. After which I believe, one factor that no person predicted is that they did hold these guys in a segregated wing of the D.C. Jail, collectively. We don’t normally try this. I imply, Gitmo is the opposite place the place we’ve completed that. However the D.C. Jail is essentially Black. And so these guys had a status at that day, when you keep in mind, as being white supremacists, so they didn’t need to throw them into the D.C. Jail. However the results of retaining them collectively, I imply, you may think about what occurred.

Applebaum: So that is precisely the factor that I needed to ask you about. I used to be very struck by one of many characters who you interview and describe. That is Brandon Fellows, who was a man who was nearly unintentionally caught up in January the sixth. He entered the Capitol. He wound up smoking a joint in one of many workplaces within the Capitol. Consequently, he was arrested. And since he was a part of this group of prisoners, he was basically radicalized. And that story of how the prisoners collectively radicalized each other, created a mythology round themselves, it jogged my memory of so many different moments in historical past when that’s occurred, I imply, for each good and for unhealthy. The IRA in British prisons radicalized; um, varied jihadis and varied prisons around the globe are stated to have radicalized that approach too. But in addition the ANC in South Africa, who have been collectively in a jail on Robben Island for a few years. I imply, that’s how they created their cohesive motion. So it could actually work positively too. Weren’t you tempted to attempt to speak him out of it, the place you—did you not need to say, “Don’t you see what’s occurring to you?”

Rosin: Yeah, I imply, with him, that intuition was very highly effective as a result of, , he’s barely older than my oldest baby. And so I—so in his case, I did have the intuition of, like, attempting to shake this out of him.

Like, “Don’t you see?,” like “You have been on this—you have been on this jail,” , and he was on this jail. He got here in as a goofball. Then he got here to see these guys as, like, fierce and hard. And by the tip, he got here to see them, as you stated, Peter, as true patriots, so it’s not simply that they have been powerful guys. It was like they have been true and righteous and the subsequent technology of founding fathers and he was identical to, Nope, such as you simply don’t, you don’t get it. I’m lethal severe right here.

Pomeranstev: So that you didn’t construct a coalition with them, you didn’t persuade them, you don’t attempt to persuade them to alter events. However you spent a 12 months with them. What’s it that you simply discovered significant in that interplay? And why is it significant for all of us to listen to about it? I imply, it’s fascinating, but additionally what’s the significance of doing one thing like this?

Rosin: I can solely let you know a few restricted significance, which is that over the previous couple of years, I’ve began to learn—as I wager you guys have—, what do you’ve gotten, like, all of us throw up our fingers: We’re so polarized. We’re not even residing in the identical actuality. We are able to’t speak to one another.

You can’t go right into a dialog, as a lot as you deeply, deeply need to, with the intention of fixing the opposite individual’s thoughts. That could be a shedding technique. Don’t do it. It’s so exhausting. It’s as exhausting in politics as it’s in a relationship. It’s very exhausting as a result of all of us simply need to try this. And so your solely choice is to only open your thoughts, hear what they must say, be curious, ask questions, and that’s it.

Applebaum: And the way do you try this with out changing into indignant?

Rosin: It’s— [Laughs.] I imply, that’s your, they simply, as a result of I’ve been to sufficient {couples} remedy [Laughs.] that it’s like, that’s your solely choice. And also you nearly must do it with a leap of religion that there’s one thing human on the finish of that.

Pomerantsev: So the that means, in a approach, is studying to only behave and work together differently.

Rosin: There are shocking type of moments of non-nastiness that come up once you strategy the world from that perspective.

Pomerantsev: I imply, I spend a number of my time writing about propaganda and speaking to folks with all types of deeply warped beliefs, and at one level I noticed that the one worthwhile query I may ask that might result in a dialog that was human was, How did it begin? How did you begin believing in X?

Rosin:Sure.

Pomerantsev: And then you definately’d all the time get a really private story.

Rosin: Sure.

Pomerantsev: Normally about some kind of trauma. I’m not saying that’s any type of excuse, but it surely out of the blue grew to become a human story about how somebody is making sense of the world.

Rosin: Sure.

Pomerantsev: And out of the blue there was an individual. Once more, I by no means modified them. They’re nonetheless gonna do horrible issues, however a minimum of I knew they have been an individual. I don’t know. Perhaps, in the long term, that helps us provide you with higher methods to cope with it. However not instantly. It’s not a like aha second.

Rosin: Yeah. It’s not a kumbaya. It’s identical to, it truly is a leap of religion ’trigger as you’re doing it, you’re feeling, Am I doing one thing harmful? Like humanizing this propaganda? Like, Is that this mistaken, what I’m doing? And also you simply type of reside with that doubt and you retain asking questions, ?

Pomeranstev: Yeah. However people do plenty of unhealthy issues. Humanizing doesn’t imply making it good; it simply makes it human. You understand, that doesn’t—it is like, Ooh, humanizing. Yeah, I believe perhaps the phrase humanizing must lose its constructive aura. People are fairly terrible.

Rosin: That’s a fairly good thought.

Pomeranstev: However they’re human. [Laughs.]

Rosin: So what’s the level of humanizing when you take away the constructive elements? Humanizing is sweet as a result of …

Pomerantsev: You begin to see the problem for what it’s fairly than one thing esoteric. You understand, it’s an actual individual doing actual issues. Due to this fact we are able to cope with it.

Applebaum: Hanna Rosin is the co-host together with Lauren Ober of the brand new six-part podcast sequence from The Atlantic referred to as We Dwell Right here Now. Discover We Dwell Right here Now wherever you take heed to podcasts.

Pomerantsev: And now we have the primary episode right here. Hold listening and, Hanna, thanks for speaking with us right now.

Rosin: Thanks each.

[We Live Here Now Episode 1: “We’re Allowed to Be Here”]

Lauren Ober: When the neighbor incident first occurred, it didn’t actually really feel very similar to something. Or perhaps we have been each too surprised to take all of it in.

Hanna Rosin: It wasn’t till we began telling different folks the story and they reacted that it started to really feel like perhaps we’d found one thing.

Ober: I suppose it began identical to another canine stroll. Hanna and I leashed up our pups and set out from our home on our post-dinner stroll. It was early November of 2023, and I keep in mind it was unseasonably heat. We headed off down the hill from our home, in the direction of our neighborhood park.

[Music]

Rosin: A block previous the park, Lauren noticed it: A black Chevy Equinox with Texas plates we’d seen parked across the neighborhood. Only a fundamental American SUV apart from the stickers that lined the again windshield—

Ober: —stickers we’re very a lot not used to seeing in our mixed-race, mixed-income neighborhood. Our vibe is extra like, Make D.C. the 51st state, and, No taxation with out illustration.

However these stickers have been a combo platter of skulls and American flags. There was a Roman numeral for 3—the image of a militia group referred to as the Three Percenters—and the pièce de résistance: a large decal within the heart of the again window that learn, free our patriots. j4j6, that means, Justice for January 6.

Rosin: Lauren notices each new or completely different factor within the neighborhood, and this automobile was undoubtedly completely different. As we walked previous it, Lauren stated what she all the time stated once we noticed this automobile.

Ober: “There’s that fucking militiamobile once more!”

Proper after I stated that reasonably unneighborly factor, the passenger-side window rolled down, cigarette smoke curled out of the automobile, and the individual inside shouted, “Justice for J6!”

Rosin: To which Lauren stated—

Ober: “You’re within the mistaken neighborhood for that, honey.” After which the girl within the automobile stated phrases I’m not going to neglect anytime quickly: “We reside right here now. So suck it, bitch.”

We’ll get to who that individual is quickly sufficient. However we’re not there but. After we first encountered the girl from the automobile, we had no thought who we have been coping with. I simply knew I used to be sufficiently put in my place. “Nicely, okay,” I keep in mind saying to Hanna as we walked again dwelling.

Rosin: I keep in mind, after it occurred, we walked away in whole silence. That’s my reminiscence—every of us looping in our personal heads about one thing.

Ober: I keep in mind being mad as a result of I misplaced. (Laughs.)

Rosin: Proper.

Ober: As a result of I didn’t get the ultimate phrase, and since I simply stored pondering, like, the entire mixture of it felt unhealthy to me. It’s like, Militia stickers. Justice for J6. We reside right here. You simply referred to as me a reputation. The entire thing was very misplaced. And I felt it was a bit destabilizing.

Rosin: Yeah, yeah. I walked dwelling in a half hypervigilant-neighborhood-watch mind—like, Who lives right here now? What are they doing right here? Are we going to get into extra of those confrontations?—and a half journalism mind, like, Who’s we? The place do they reside? Why are there right here now? These have been my two tracks after I was strolling dwelling.

[Music]

​Ober: I’m Lauren Ober.

Rosin: And I’m Hanna Rosin.

Ober: And from The Atlantic, that is We Dwell Right here Now.

A lot of the nation watched January 6 from a protected distance: one thing occurring of their Twitter feeds or on their cellphone screens. However for these of us residing in D.C., it was occurring in our yard.

Donald Trump: I do know that everybody right here will quickly be marching over to the Capitol constructing to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.

Rioter: Begin making an inventory. Put all these names down. And we begin looking them down one after the other.

Individual on bullhorn inside Congress: We had a disbursement of tear gasoline within the Rotunda. Please be suggested there are masks underneath your seats. Please seize a masks.

[Music]

All Issues Thought of host Ailsa Chang: In Washington, D.C., a curfew has now taken impact from 6 p.m. Japanese tonight to six a.m. Thursday morning.

Ober: So we have been really left with the wreckage of that day. We have been in a militarized metropolis. We have been residing underneath a curfew. Streets have been blocked off. The home windows have been all boarded up. And also you felt such as you have been residing, if not in a warzone, in a harmful place.

Rosin: And there was Nationwide Guard in every single place. All of the shops have been closed, and there have been only a few common folks strolling round doing common issues. And I used to be simply pondering, The place am I? What metropolis is that this?

Ober: Proper. I purchased a baseball bat for defense.

Rosin: I keep in mind that.

Ober: Which is why, two-plus years later, it felt like this complete time period we’d fairly neglect was racing again. Donald Trump was wanting like he’d be the Republican nominee, and a second Trump presidency appeared doable. Plus, we had a automobile with militia stickers lurking in our neighborhood.

Rosin: So no, we didn’t welcome January 6 supporters creeping again to the scene of the crime. But in addition, we needed to know what they have been as much as.

[Music]

Ober: Within the instant aftermath of January 6, there have been three names I related to what occurred on the Capitol: The QAnon Shaman, for apparent causes; Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes as a result of he appeared actually harmful, and likewise he had an eye fixed patch; and Ashli Babbitt, who has all the things to do with our new neighbors’ arrival in D.C.

4 folks died that day, however I solely keep in mind listening to about Ashli. Perhaps that’s as a result of she was the one rioter killed by legislation enforcement.

Ashli Babbitt was a Trump diehard, so it’s not shocking she made her method to D.C. for the rally. She was a Second Modification–loving libertarian. She wholeheartedly believed in MAGA and QAnon. Through the pandemic, she was hostile about masks mandates and refused to get vaccinated. When California issued a stay-at-home order, she tweeted, “That is that commie bullshit!”

Rosin: The day earlier than her loss of life, Ashli tweeted in QAnon communicate: “Nothing will cease us….they will attempt to attempt to strive however the storm is right here and it’s descending upon D.C. in lower than 24 hours….darkish to mild!”

Ashli Babbitt: We’re strolling to the Capitol in a mob. There’s an estimated over 3 million folks right here right now. So regardless of what the media tells you, boots on floor undoubtedly say one thing completely different. There’s a sea of nothing however pink, white, and blue.

Ober: On the day of the riots, she appeared genuinely thrilled to be there.

Babbitt: And it was wonderful to get to see the president speak. We are actually strolling down the inaugural path to the Capitol constructing, 3 million plus folks. God bless America, patriots.

Rosin: Extra like 50,000 folks, give or take. And some thousand of them went into the Capitol—or, extra precisely, broke in. When the mob of protestors breached the Capitol, busting home windows and breaking down doorways, Ashli was proper there within the combine.

Rioter: There’s so many individuals. They’re going to push their approach up right here.

Rosin: There are 4 movies shot by rioters that seize this second in its entirety: Ashli strides down a hallway like she is aware of the place she’s going. She’s adopted by different rioters, however they’re out of the blue stopped once they come to a set of doorways with giant window panels. Via the home windows, you can also make out congresspeople being evacuated away from the rising mob. The group Ashli is with has unintentionally landed on the bullseye, the precise place the place these congresspeople have been about to certify the election.

[Crowd noise]

Rosin: On the opposite facet of the doorways is a cop with a gun, though it’s unclear if Ashli can see him. She’s the one lady in a sea of males, and she or he’s small, and she or he appears to be yelling.

Ashli: It’s our fucking home. We’re allowed to be in right here. You’re mistaken.

Rosin: “It’s our fucking home. We’re allowed to be in right here. You’re mistaken.”

One of many rioters breaks a window, after which, out of nowhere, Ashli tries to climb by it.

[Crowd noise]

Rosin: The cop shoots.

Rioter: Oh! Oh, shit! Pictures fired! Pictures fired!

Rosin: She instantly falls backwards and lands on the ground. She jerks and convulses, and blood pours out of her mouth.

Rioter 1: She’s lifeless.

Rioter 2: She’s lifeless?

Rioter 1: She’s lifeless. I noticed the sunshine exit in her eyes. I noticed the lights exit.

Rioter 2: What occurred, bro? Inform the world.

Rosin: After which one thing occurs proper after she dies. It’s a element I missed at first, but it surely turned out to be a spark for all the things that might occur since that day. Individuals round Ashli take out their cell telephones and begin filming.

Rioter 1: This particular person says he really noticed her die. He really noticed her die.

Rioter 2: I’ll publish that video. I’ve the video. I’ve the video of the man with the gun, and so they’re taking pictures her.

Rioter: Okay. I need to get with you. I’m with Infowars.com. I’m with Infowars.com.

Rioter 2: “Jayden X.” Have you ever ever heard of that?

Rosin: One individual says he’s from Infowars and affords to purchase footage from somebody nearer.

Rioter 1: I need to get your information proper now when you bought that shot.

Rioter 2: I’ve all of it. I used to be proper on the door.

Rioter 2: Okay. I want that footage, man. It’s going to exit to the world. It’s going to alter a lot.

Rosin: Even within the chaos they notice: A martyr was born.

Ober: Rumors unfold instantly that the girl killed was 25, 21, a mere teenager. In precise reality, Ashli was 35. However the particulars didn’t matter. She was a younger, white lady within the prime of her life shot lifeless by a Black officer. Individuals have been fast to level out that she was a veteran—a struggle hero, even—purportedly upholding her oath to defend the Structure when she died.

On far-right, pro-Trump message boards post-January 6, Ashli was referred to as a freedom fighter and the “first sufferer of the second Civil Warfare.” One individual wrote: “Your blood won’t be in useless. We are going to avenge you.”

Rosin: Individuals who got here to January 6 thought they have been saving our democracy from evil forces attempting to steal an election.

Three years later, a few of them nonetheless assume that. And now, those self same evil forces are retaining J6 “freedom fighters” in jail. Justice for January 6—that’s what these window stickers on the Chevy are about.

Ober: This conspiracy has gotten extra elaborate over time: The revolt was a setup, or, The prosecution of January 6 rioters represented gross authorities overreach, or, The federal government can flip by itself residents, even kill them.

Rosin: A whole lot of the individuals who consider these items have taken their cues from one lady: Ashli’s mom. Her identify is Micki Witthoeft.

Micki Witthoeft: Ashli was a beloved daughter, spouse, sister, granddaughter, niece, and aunt. However past that, she was the only bravest individual I’ve ever recognized. She was the quintessential American lady. At present is a darkish day for our household and this nation, for they’ve misplaced a real patriot. I wish to invite Donald J. Trump to say her identify—

[Music]

Ober: It took us a minute, however with the assistance of some pals, we lastly found out that Micki was our new neighbor. I wasn’t certain what I thought of having Ashli Babbitt’s grieving mom come again to the place the place her daughter was killed. Why was she right here, in our D.C. neighborhood? What did she need? Was there some kind of future Jan. 6 on the horizon? All of it felt just a bit too shut for consolation.

Within the days after our run-in with the neighbor, I Googled ’til my eyeballs dried out. There have been a number of movies on social media that featured Micki however not a number of strong data. I reported what I may discover to Hanna.

Ober: Do you need to know what the home is known as?

Rosin: What?

Ober: The Eagle’s Nest.

Rosin: Oh, cease. (Laughs.) What?

Ober: Yeah.

Rosin: No, we don’t have the Eagle’s Nest in our neighborhood.

Ober: What does the Eagle’s Nest imply to you?

Rosin: Some patriot factor.

Ober: No. Nicely, certain, one would assume, Oh, it’s patriotic, proper? American Eagle.

Rosin: Mm-hmm.

Ober: It’s the place all of the eagles go. However have you learnt who else had a really specific property referred to as the Eagle’s Nest?

Rosin: No.

Ober: Nicely, I’ll let you know. It’s Adolf Hitler. Nevertheless, to cite Micki, who defined to HuffPost why they referred to as the home the Eagle’s Nest:

Ober: She stated, We name our home the Eagle’s Nest, which some would say was Hitler’s hideout. However we’re Americans, and we received that struggle, and we’re taking again the identify. So that is completely not an ode to Hitler.

Ober: Right here’s what else I discovered: The web movies of Micki didn’t precisely make me need to deliver over a tray of home made, “Welcome to the neighborhood” brownies. A lot of shouting and scowling and basic unpleasantness.

Witthoeft: Why are you all right here when you’re going to let that occur? He stated, Why the hell are you all right here?

Individual 2: He stated that to you? That was very unprofessional!

Individual 3: They’re fascists.

Ober: In a single clip on-line, Micki is being arrested for “blocking and obstructing roadways.” She was at a march to honor the second anniversary of her daughter’s loss of life, and she or he walked into the road one too many instances. The D.C. cops didn’t recognize that, and so they let her understand it.

It wasn’t the one time she bought into it with the cops. A 12 months later—

Witthoeft: I attempt to present y’all respect. I’ve been arrested twice, and I’ve completed it peacefully. That’s bullshit. Your man is bullshit. That’s bullshit.

Officer: I wasn’t down right here, so I can communicate to how—

Ober: There have been quite a lot of movies of Micki and her housemates stepping into dustups with D.C. of us who didn’t appear to understand their presence of their metropolis.

Individual 1: Get the fuck outta right here.

Individual 2: Get the fuck off of me, bitch. Get the fuck off, the fuck off. Get the fuck off.

Individual 3: Hey! We caught it on video.

Individual 2: Cease fucking touching my shit.

Individual 3: Get out of right here, you pansy.

Ober: However later, in the identical video, there’s this: Our new neighbors are getting harassed by anti-J6 protestors, of us who wish to chalk the sidewalk with phrases like “Micki is a grifter.” There are a selection of D.C. cops on the scene. I get tense simply watching it. Lastly, Micki snaps and screams at them.

Officer: I heard all of the commotion. That’s why I bought out. I can’t see—I didn’t see what occurred out right here.

Individual 2: I needed to beg him to get out of his automobile.

Witthoeft: You’ll be able to inform your man that the rationale I’m right here is as a result of three years in the past right now, y’all killed my child. That’s why I’m right here.

[Music]

Ober: Proper. She’s a mother, and the police killed her child. That’s why she’s right here. She needs to verify her lifeless daughter isn’t forgotten and that somebody is held accountable for what occurred.

And a technique to try this is to perhaps get your self arrested, or a minimum of present up in every single place—January 6 trials, congressional hearings, the Supreme Courtroom, rallies, marches, my neighborhood.

One other approach for folks to take discover? A nightly vigil outdoors the D.C. jail, each single night time for greater than 700 nights.

Rosin: And we imply each night time, within the rain or scorching warmth. With out fail, Micki and some supporters stand on what they name Freedom Nook and speak on the cellphone with the J6 defendants held contained in the jail.

Ober: As I defined to Hanna:

Ober: Each night time at 7 p.m., these apparently true patriots—

Rosin: Mm-hmm.

Ober: —come out, and so they have a vigil for all the January 6 defendants who’re at present being held within the jail, both awaiting trial or awaiting sentencing.

Rosin: Mm-hmm.

Ober: And each night time, they get a January 6 inmate on the cellphone, and so they put them on the speaker, after which they take part singing, like, the nationwide anthem or “America the Stunning,” and so they’re chanting, like, “Justice for Ashli.” And the night ends, typically, with “God Bless [the U.S.A.],” Lee Greenwood.

Rosin: Who’s the “they”?

Ober: So there’s a small cadre of true believers who consider that the folks within the D.C. jail are political prisoners.

Rosin: Attention-grabbing.

[Music]

Rosin: Attention-grabbing is a boring factor to say. I get that. However I used to be solely simply beginning to put this complete image collectively, that Micki and her pals weren’t in D.C. simply to trigger chaos. They have been right here to push a story that these folks—the identical ones who turned our metropolis the other way up—have been victims of a colossal injustice. And in addition, that January 6 was really a completely acceptable train of freedom and liberty.

And their model of the story was getting traction with some essential folks—really, an important individual.

Trump: I’m the political prisoner of a failing nation, however I’ll quickly be free on November 5, an important day within the historical past of our nation, and we’ll collectively make America nice once more. Thanks.

Rosin: If our interactions with our new neighbors had unfolded extra like the standard neighborhood showdown—my MAGA hat versus your dump trump signal—issues may need been simpler as a result of that might be simply straight-up neighbor warfare, pure mutual hatred.

Ober: However it didn’t occur that approach. As an alternative, two reverse dramas unfolded: (1) We bought an up-close, intimate view of how historical past will get rewritten. Name it the lost-cause narrative for the twenty first century: A bunch of Individuals instantly units to work retooling the historical past of an occasion by tweets and podcasts and viral video clips, in a approach that distorts collective reminiscence ceaselessly.

Rosin: However then, (2) our new neighbors grew to become actual folks to us. We additionally bought an up-close, intimate view of them, their monumental grief, their sleepless nights, their deep friendship—issues that make it tougher to purely hate on somebody.

Ober: This lady, Micki Witthoeft, is many issues to many individuals—Mama Micki to the January 6 defendants, mom of a lifeless home terrorist to others. However to us, she’s one thing else—she’s our neighbor.

Ober: Do you need to hear one thing rotten?

Micki: I don’t know if I do, however I’ll.

Ober: After months of attending to know Micki, I felt like I wanted to admit one thing. She had been telling me how folks within the neighborhood had usually been good to them, apart from this one time. Considered one of her roommates, Nicole, had been sitting within the automobile, and these two ladies walked by and stated one thing completely impolite, and—I do know, you’ve already heard the story earlier than.

Ober: Nicole sitting within the automobile—that was me. And I’m totally disgusted with myself and embarrassed. Like, as a result of that’s not how I need to be handled, and that’s not how I need to take into consideration folks. However I did it.

Micki: Oh, properly, I’m stunned you—I’m impressed that you simply admitted that to me. I actually am. That’s going to be fascinating after I inform Nicole.

Ober: Since that incident, I’ve spent a number of time with Micki attempting to know her trigger, her politics, and her anger. I’ve had many moments the place I believed: What the hell am I doing, getting all caught up of their revisionist historical past of January 6? However what I can let you know is that Micki isn’t who I believed she was.

She is each bit as fiery as she comes off in speeches and confrontations with individuals who need her out of this metropolis. After practically a 12 months of realizing her, I’m nonetheless afraid of her. I’ve by no means earlier than in my life met an individual with such penetrating eyes, and she or he wields them to nice impact. If she is staring you down, I promise you, one can find no reduction.

Ober: So the window rolls down, and I suppose Nicole stated, , “Justice for J6!” Proper? Reflexively, in two seconds, I’m going, “Nicely, you’re within the mistaken neighborhood for that.” Proper? Now, I really feel such as you would recognize that as a result of typically issues come out of your mouth that perhaps you didn’t take into consideration. I’m an individual who could be very responsible of that, as my mouth runs away with me.

So, I stated that, and she or he goes, “We reside right here now. So suck it, bitch.” (Laughs.)

Micki: That’s my Nicole. (Laughs.)

Ober: And I used to be like, Nicely, okay.

[Music]

Rosin: After we first bumped into the militiamobile, we didn’t know something about Micki and her crew. We thought anybody may very well be residing in that home, with that automobile. Perhaps it was an precise militia headquarters with a cache of weapons within the basement. Perhaps it was just a few wacko whose patriotism had gone completely sideways.

Ober: However now, after practically a 12 months of reporting this story, we all know a lot extra. And in the remainder of the sequence, we’re going to take you thru this upside-down world we landed in—the place we discovered ourselves speaking conspiracies.

Micki: I don’t know what I consider them able to. Is it consuming infants and consuming their blood? I don’t assume so. However I don’t know. I imply, I don’t know what they’re as much as.

Ober: How one can out of the blue end up joking with January 6ers about militias?

Nicole: If you happen to’re going to come back down right here, you’ve bought to know your militias straight.

Ober: You understand, I can’t—there are too many splinter teams and, .

Nicole: There’s factions. There’s ranges. There’s colour coding. (Laughs.)

Ober: Hear. When the homosexual militia occurs, I’m there, okay? When that occurs. Till then—

Nicole: Nicely, we’re a rustic of militias, .

Ober: And questioning, What may presumably be coming for us?

Rosin: Like, how lengthy are you going to remain in D.C.?

Brandon Fellows: I plan to remain ’til, like, January 7. (Laughs.)

Rosin: That feels vaguely threatening.

Fellows: I may see why you’ll say that.

Rosin: That’s developing on We Dwell Right here Now.

Ober: We Dwell Right here Now is a manufacturing of The Atlantic. The present was reported, written, and government produced by me, Lauren Ober. Hanna Rosin reported, wrote, and edited the sequence. Our senior producer is Rider Alsop. Our producer is Ethan Brooks. Unique scoring, sound design, and blend engineering by Brendan Baker.

This sequence was edited by Scott Stossel and Claudine Ebeid. Truth-checking by Michelle Ciarrocca. Artwork path by Colin Hunter. Mission administration by Nancy DeVille.

Claudine Ebeid is the chief producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.

The Atlantic’s government editor is Adrienne LaFrance. Jeffrey Goldberg is The Atlantic’s editor-in-chief.

Nicole. After which did I say one thing like, Nicely, bitch, I reside right here now, or one thing?

Ober: Very near that. “We reside right here now, so—”

Nicole: Get used to it?

Ober: No.

Nicole: Suck it? Fuck it?

Ober: No. You’re proper on the “suck it.”

Nicole: (Laughs.) I don’t know.

Ober: “Suck it,” what? “Suck it,” who?

Nicole: Suck it, fascist? (Laughs.) A lot extra fascist than me. Don’t inform me what I stated.

Ober: You stated, “Suck it, bitch.”

Nicole: Oh! Okay. Okay.